Bush Administration and Stupid Ideas..

[[AK]Squidly]

Question: How do you know Bin Laden isn't dead, vaporized by a daisy cutter?

Statement: The war on terrorism isn't limited to Bin Laden or Afghanistan, or even Al Qaeda. Realizing that is the first step in a true grasp of this subject.

Observation: We likely wouldn't be dealing with this issue right now if there had been support for finishing the job during the Gulf War. However people conveniently
"forget" that there was no support for going into Baghdad. The same hand wringing that was going on before Desert Storm began was starting up again. The same people criticizing (elder) Bush for not taking out Saddam when he had the chance were crying about body bags and bloodbaths if we continued.

Flash forward to today - Same crap, different day.

Answer: No I didn't add the porn thing... it was there originally. Lileks.com is a great site.

Answer: It has been American policy not to engage in the assasination of leaders of other countries. That policy has changed since 9/11.

Answer: Killing Hussein isn't enough. If he is harboring, aiding terrorists, and/or warehousing the materials to build WMD, these things too must be wiped out.

Question: You hate Microsft. How are you getting 1942 to run on your Linux box?

[[AK]Hylander]

Slaughter,

I just want to make sure I make this disclaimer to you and anyone else....

I love discussion/debate and that's where it ends. Nothing personal and I never intentionally flame/insult someone for their opinions (Unless your name is Bara and you post on the Seahawks newsgroup ) so if it "comes off" that way at any time, please accept my apologies.

Politics/religion/sports - VOLATILITY!

[[AK]Faxman]

"although there was speculation that Clinton wouldn't have been able to handle what happened 9/11 as well as Bush did.. however, I think he would've done fine..."

I disagree. Clinton would have simply kicked a few cruise missiles into empty terror training camps in Afghanistan and hoped the problem would go away. Like he did during his administration a few years ago.

[Slaughter]

LOL.. good points Hy, but its also possible the the corruption in companies in Enron and etc. happened even before Clinton.. Oh well.. Yes, Clinton was a big screw up.. and he probably did inhale, probably more so while in office, but he did the credit for the good things that happened while he was in office.. Some he deseerved, some just by coincidence.

[Slaughter]

Answer: I HAVE to run Windows.. which makes me feel forced into a monopoly.. do I just get my Windows from friends Although I can say good things about XP..

[[AK]Palooka]

No problem, Slaughter; it was my pleasure. Now, let me set you straight about something else. Clinton had virtually nothing to do with our economic health in the 90s. He was simply fortunate enough to benefit from the tax cuts of the Reagan years. Tax cuts stimulate the economy, which is something that liberals will never understand; they think that raising taxes and throwing more money into big, wasteful government programs will fix everything. Oh, and Greenspan, while being a pretty smart guy, has been terrible for the economy.

Just to be clear regarding Hy's mentioning of Clinton's bartering of technological secrets for campaign contributions, he traded nuclear secrets to China for contributions to the Democratic National Committee. As far as I'm concerned, he should be brought up on charges of treason for this dispicable stunt. He betrayed America for self-serving, political motives. If you want the full story on this, and it's absolutely infuriating, read Bill Gertz's book, The China Threat.

[Widowmaker]

After perusing this thread my views here are not going to be popular.

I hate Bush, and I don't hate many people. I have no love for Hussein but I do not think we should go to war with them without UN cooperation.

Bush spends a lot of time saying that Iraq and many other countries have to follow UN resolutions but then out of the other side of his mouth he does not want to follow any himself, no US troops to be tried in UN courts yet he says other countries need to do this. The UN does not approve of attacking Iraq and Bush is saying to stuff them. His statements in most cases have been the very definition of hypocrisy.

I did not like his father and I hated Reagan. Does this make me a Democrat? Dunno, but since most of the politicians I dislike are Republican then I guess so. I also hold a lot of those evil liberal views. Is that wrong? Maybe but they are still my views.

I even think Marijuana should be made legal.

I do not support an unsupported attack on Iraq especially when Iraq is doing its obvious ploys for world sympathy. Such as saying they will let in inspectors with no conditions knowing that Bush will not buy it and still attack then they can claim to be the victim. Bush may be gaining some homefront support by publicly bashing Hussien for this but the rest of the world may not see through the deception. Bush needs to finish his political war with Iraq before the physical one starts because unless Hussien unleashes a Nuke or mass chemical attacks when we strike at them they will be able to gain international sympathy with the more friendly Arab and Muslim nations by playing the victim (which we all know is rot).

I am not a total pacifist but think that War should be done carefully or we risk drawing others into the conflict and it could escalate into something really nasty. I also feel sad that we are actually thinking of attacking a nation. This is repulsive to me on a personal level even though it may be needed. If it is needed then I just hope that it is done right and not just as a knee jerk type reaction which George W. seems so good at.

I do not like the loss of personal freedoms during this time but I understand there must be sacrifices for the safety of the people yet I fear what the new powers of law enforcement will mean in the long run.

I just hope that Bush is not going to war for Oil. To be honest I do not trust him at all.

I actually liked Clinton. I got hours of entertainment from his scandals, plus I just plain liked him. Probably because I am one of those stupid liberals it seems so popular to hate these days (far too much hate in the world already).

There is a difference between Patriotism and Hateriotism. Hateriotism is what is sweeping the country in way to many places. We hate Hussein so we need to oust him with military means. Why do we hate him? Is he evil? Is not Evil something that has roots in religion? And yet we are claiming religion is not a part of the war on terror and yet when one takes "the moral high ground" by claiming a fight of good vs evil then they are making it about religion (and yes I am one of those unpopular agnostic types too). Not my philosophy but then I do not ever want war. I shed a tear for every person dead on both sides in a war, death is never something I calibrate but at times there is no alternative. And there may be no alternative with Hussien but the fact is the rest of the world sees things a bit differently. Our president and its administration needs to get more international support, or at least agreement, before just attacking someone. If he attacks even with all our Allies (except the Brits who I think are our best friends in the world community) saying that they do not agree with a preemptive strike then it will not be good for us in the long run.

I am a patriot. I am a patriot to the country and system of government even though I don't agree with most of it (Electoral College anyone? I thought it was a crazy electoral system since I learned about it in Jr. High). Being a Patriot does not mean I have to like the person heading it at the moment. Faithful to the Throne and not necessarily the one currently sitting on it type of thing.

The above are just my views and it will likely be the last I say in the matter. And no amount of flag waving will get me to support on a personal level the Bush administration. And yes I will vote against him in the next election just like I did the last (the one where he only won by a loophole in a state run by his brother which still can't figure out how to cast a frigging vote). I do not want to debate it since I have neither the time nor the desire to try to convince others to think like me nor do I want to respond to others trying to get me to agree with them. I won't change my mind nor do I expect others to change theirs. If things will change it will be at the polls, I prefer to let the system do its best to work as it should.

Hope you guys don't hate me now. And I do agree with what Slaughter wrote.

[Zorro]

I'll lean, once again, on my history, which says, undeniably, that waiting out dictators doesn't work all that well...

As far as your good-n-evil thing, I question whether that has anything to do with religion... Take, for instance, the view that EVERY person has that man is either basically good basically evil. These ideas existed long before the concept of God, Allah, or Ho Tai and are likely the catalyst for a good many modern religions. So, you see,the concept of good and evil is not necessarily tied to the beliefs of Bible thumpers and Koran quoters the world over.

And <gasp> I'm a conservative independant (tm) that believes that marijuana should be legal too... In fact, the whole war on drugs thing is just another example of wasteful government spending to finance colonial imperialism and enforce religious right morality... On the medical side, pot is LESS bad for you and your personal relationships than alcohol EVER dreamed of being... I don't know a single guy that tokes a doob and then goes and beats on his wife. It's not very often that you hear of a teenage girl puffing on a blunt and then going and having unprotected sex with some stranger, contracting a venerial disease and getting knocked up all in one swell foop. Mind you, I haven't smoked in at least 5 years at this point (I don't drink, either), and I don't plan on doing it again, but, at the same time, I have a hard time being anti something that does so little harm, and only then BECAUSE it's illegal...

My current political hero is Jesse Ventura: a guy that says what he means, means what he says, and has pragmatic cross-party ideals that speak to many people in a time where the two party system represents exactly none of the people it claims. IMHO, he's the Teddy Roosevelt of the 21st century.

[Widowmaker]

After seeing numerous interviews with Ventura I have got to agree with you on him. I like that guy. Talks straigh with little to no bull. I'd vote for him any day of the week.

His Larry King interview a few weeks past was a good one. Made me want to read his book, but I still haven't.

I do not believe in good or evil. But I do believe in right and wrong which may ammount to the same thing to many but not to me. Good and evil seem to define the nature of man's activities and seem to say that there is some inherent nature to good and evil (often rooted in religion). Right and Wrong are defined by the rules we are brought up with, what is right to me may be wrong to you sort of thing. This makes far more sense to me. If wrong=evil and right=good then what is good to me is evil to you and then you get into arguments about what is good or evil assuming that good and evil are some naturaly occuring sense. Thinking that it is some inborn thing makes no sense to me.

[Slaughter]

I have to agree with you also Wid, I think you said what I wanted to, in better words..

Jesse Ventura is great, I heard rumors of him running for president already.. although, that is also purely specualtion at this point. Bush however, isn't showing too favorable by going against the UN... as Wid pointed out.

[Widowmaker]

Ventura said he will not run for president. Said he pretty much had his fill of politics and wants to retire.

Oh, and to set the record straight. I dislike all politicians on general principal. Politics are where Lawyers go to die. Everyone knows my feelings on Lawyers :P

[[AK]Hylander]

Bush's 70% approval rating - Guess not everybody wants to play possom with the UN

Ventura has a personality, and he is a nice change from "normal" politicians. The problem is, he is short on real solutions to real problems.

The UN is nothing but posturing. Iraq hasn't followed UN mandates in years, now says that it will, AGAIN, and the world slaps them on the back and says "good boy" fully expecting he will follow through?? I have beach front in Nebraska to sell you if you believe that one.

Just today, Iraq said "Unconditionally, but the inspectors must respect our independence and sovereignty". In other words, we intend to thwart the inspectors once again as we delay the inevitable due to the UN failing to enforce its "resolutions".

If great leaders waited for diplomacy to deal with tyrants... we would all be speaking German right now.

[[AK]Squidly]

Handwringing liberals make me laugh. Ha ha ha! HA!

(Just wanted to say that again if it wasn't clear enough the first time.)

People who say they "hate Bush" make me laugh as well. They never seem to supply a worthwhile reason why. They "hated" him from day one though. Maybe it's the
whole "rebellion against authority" thing.

Suffice it to say, many folks' world-view is significantly overly simplified.

Oh and Ventura? Great act. Interesting fellow. Straight shooter. Unfortunately he had more than his share of wack-a-do ideas and had no ability (or desire, your choice) to work the political machine. His world-view was also fatally shallow.

[Widowmaker]

Do I realy need to post a reason why I dislike Bush? At day 1 I disliked him because of his father and I prefered Gore to Bush. Gore won the popular vote and Bush still won because of the Electoral collage. I do not bitch about that because it is our system. I would love to see that part of the system change but the bottom line is that it is our system.

I am not trying to debate, I have never been a big fan of debates.

How many times have I berated "Conservatives"? None

Why do so many people berate me for being "liberal" (edit: I am talking about real life not just this forum)? As if having some liberal viewpoints makes me a part of some political agenda.

My world views are far more complex than you could understand. But I refuse to argue about it. You will never be able to change my mind.

I would never presume to change yours.

/end

[[AK]Squidly]

Originally posted by [AK]Widowmaker
[B]Do I realy need to post a reason why I dislike Bush? At day 1 I disliked him because of his father and I prefered Gore to Bush.

If you want to be taken seriously and make a convincing point, yes. If you want to be dismissed, then no.

The reason given above is partially funny, and partially sad - mostly because it's the reason the majority of people give for why they like one candidate or another.

But hey, it's your reason, and you're entitled to it.

Regarding your world views being more complex than I could ever understand - I doubt it.