Are They Insane?

[[AK]Bribo]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/06/D8I2PI2O0.html

You would think we would have learned our lesson with North Korea. The politics of appeasement continues...

[Slaughter]

What technology, exactly?

Are we going to build power plants for them so that they never enrich the uranium themselves (which they would probably keep doing secretly anyway)? Or are we just trying to save some face with Muslimites?

[[AK]Squidly]

There are types of reactors which are essentially useless as a bridge to a bomb. I suspect this is the sort of technology which is being offered.

Since everyone knows that the Iranians are still going to pursue a bomb anyway, this is a lose-nothing offer for the US. It makes us look as though we are sincerely trying.

[[AK]Bribo]

We tried this same kind of "deal" with the North Koreans under the Clinton administration.

So... yeah.

[Slaughter]

As long as theres really no way to reverse engineer it, then I'd say its good P.R.

[[AK]Squidly]

Actually it the NK deal was nothing like this one. Also:

A) I don't expect the Iranians to accept.
B) I think the US knows they won't accept.
C) I think this is a well calculated PR move.
D) If they DO accept, there will be no letdown in monitoring - and certianly no end of suspicion - unlike under the Clinton administration with NK.

So...yeah. It's different.

[Cruiser]

I think this is a great move from a political standpoint. Im impressed so many countries signed on. Kudo's to the Bush admin for respecting the rest of the world's opinions for once. Very clever move from a normally "we'll jes blow ur shit up" administration.

I think Iran may actually except the deal to save face from there premature showing of cards. This will buy themselves more time to tinker out of the worlds spotlight.

These guys will be able to make a bomb before long no matter what anyone does less "blow there shit up" of course.

They dont have to "reverse engineer" anything when Russia is basically walking them thru all the processes. Russia has been selling weapons etc to this part of the world for years. Nuclear tech just being the most talked about.

I dont think many people understand how badly Russia and China do NOT want us in Iran. Both countries have vested interest in this region. There are and have been alot of behind the scenes deals going down over there everyday.

I personally think if we invaded Iran, China would then be forced to play a hand they do not want to play just yet. Also one must consider that Russia and China now are in bed together. They even held some mutual wargames last year with around 15000troops, armor and jets etc. Who woulda thunk??

One must also consider China is and has been very HUNGRY for natural resources. They have been rather silently trying to secure them all over the globe for quite a few years now.. They will do anything to keep there incredible "industrial revolution" steaming ahead. Iran just happens to be a country of premium interest to them. South America and Africa are some other notible places they are moving in on, successfully at that i might add. Read some of the Venez prez latest statements for example.

This rhetoric may appease the world but does nothing to slow down some very interesting Alliances that are forming in that part of the world and beyond.

[[AK]Nuts]

Iran simply sees how North Korea can threaten their way through global economics. 'We've got Weapon Sytem XYZ, and we're going to use it!... unless of course, you give us discounts on goods A, B, & C". Just once I'd like to see an American President step up and tell these third-world, stone-age creatins to blow it out their collective ass. Iran and North Korea have failed to contribute anything to the greater good of the world. Their culture and society do not better the human condition and no one would honestly miss them if we wiped them off the planet.

America is a nation of warriors. We have always fought wars. Any hint that we are a peacefull people is just a load of steaming dog crap. Simply look at our history. Embrace it. We are generous when you are nice, otherwise we're going to piss all over you. And that's exactly how we should threat Iran and NK. Screw 'em. And that policy works. Ask Momar Quadhfi (sp?) in Libiya. He was all pro-terrorism in the mid-80's, supporting the bombings of American Soldiers in West Germany. That is until Ronald Reagan blew the crap out Momar's houses killing his wives and kids. That action certainly fixed his little red wagon, didn't it?

I guaran-damn-tee it.... drop on small-scale tactical nuke in Iran and see what happens. No one is going to issue a trade embargo against us... they need our fat wallets. No one is going to retaliate.... we have the most powerful military in the history of man and we're using them for piss-ant little affairs like Iraq security patrols and border guards. Screw it! Let's take the gloves off and waken the sleeping giants. The world needs an enemy... let's put on our masks and go to town!

[Cruiser]

Bold words spoken from the comfort of an bullet and bomb scar free air conditioned office whilst sitting in a plush chair. You go cowboy!

Lets give the muslim community more reason to HATE us man. As if 4 administrations in a row havent done enough already WOOHOO!! Never mind all the sorted "projects" going on over there affiliated with our governnent. I mean heck them wanting to start WW3 so that billions of people will die and Islam will have a chance to rise and riegn supreme is just a myth! No worries man!!

It would take ALOT of bombs to do what you describe for sure...why not just start rounding them up and toss em in ovens etc? To want to wipe them off the map without exhausting all diplomatic measures is quite frankly disturbing. Judging all of them so generally as a whole is rather unfair ta boot. Just as bad attitudes and poor policies of leaders fuel unfounded hatred towards the populations as a whole on both sides. The information age is lessoning these impacts tho it doesnt magically douse age old flames.

A "tactical" bombing would be our a typical short term narrow minded solution. Who cares if future americans have to pay the price for it right? That solution really falls right in line with America's current "on demand" society nicely. Im sure they wont retaliate and blow Israel off the map for "fear" of us! Im sure thru the information age they will never learn how best to take advantage of our lax society and inflict maximum casualties one way or the other.

Get out of the dam 80's and wake up bro! We are upon a new world order!! Were not the only ones with bombs!! In fact who needs bombs anymore? We actually have to answer to the world when we act more then ever before! Oh and guess what we may not RULE the roost forever more and could even possibly have to PAY for all the crimes that have been commited worldwide in the name of U.S.A. There are over 3+ BILLION people coming of age and our materialistic greedy ways are FINANCING the awakening!! Wonder how long before Water is more precious then OIL?? Theres some food for thought...

Also im sorry but I just dont see this nation of warriors you speak of. I dont feel like were of the same backbone then even a generation or two before us. Yeah we have guns in many many homes but i challenge you to imagine some of the folks you see from day to day with one in there hands. We are still a great and powerfull nation and have a military to be proud of yet for sure. All im saying is there has been a steady rate of deterioration of our core values which in turn makes us weak IMO. Were to damn divided and growing more and more so everyday.

Im not anti American im just an American citizen studying what being American means to the rest of the world these days. Im finding alot of interesting tracks to say the least.

Heres some interesting NON corporate input on the subject im studying:

It is some unbiased reporting from Iraq. These guys have been there for over 8months ongoing.

http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/multi_..._3_14_2006.php

PS dont be fooled into thinking China trade with us will dictate policy in our favor forever. In fact they are starting to get an edge on us in that reguard and they are also brokering deals all over the globe to further increase that type of leverage.

/end sporadic rant for now!

[[AK]Hylander]

Too much underlying leftist ideology in post to quote.

I suggest you donate to MoveOn.org... they are really right up your alley.

Not that I'm in agreement with Nuts position either, but if we had followed your logic in "the 80's"... we would have lost the Cold War. Although I do agree with your point on core value deterioration, at least to a certain extent. Much of that is co-mingled in our flawed immigration policies that placate the minority instead of encouraging adoption of our values. Understanding and accepting cultural differences of immigrants shouldn't mean the abandonment of our own for the sake of political correctness.

[[AK]Nuts]

Bold words spoken from the comfort of an bullet and bomb scar free air conditioned office whilst sitting in a plush chair. You go cowboy!

My chair isn't all that plush, thank you!

Lets give the muslim community more reason to HATE us man. As if 4 administrations in a row havent done enough already WOOHOO!! Never mind all the sorted "projects" going on over there affiliated with our governnent. I mean heck them wanting to start WW3 so that billions of people will die and Islam will have a chance to rise and riegn supreme is just a myth! No worries man!!

Muslims certainly won't likes us just because we are friendly too them. That kind of feel-good politics has never, ever, in the history of mankind worked. It sounds all lofty and noble, but good intentions and noble actions will never make a stone-aged civilization suddenly fall in love with us. Only power and might will keep them in check. How much money do we give? How many trade packages do we give? How much food? How much medicine? These things sound good, but they never win the hearts of men. And you know what? We don't have to. Who said that we have to be buddy-buddy with every po-dunk, baby-murdering warlord on the planet?

And as far as Muslims go, they are just pissed off because Allah promised them the world and Christians put them in their place. The were all nice and friendly when they were conquering the Middle East, Africa and Europe... But once they were stomped into mudholes and pushed back their crappy little countries, their honor was ruined and they had no choice but be piss-ass little terrorists that they are now. They can't figure out why Allah hasn't delivered them the globe and can come up with only one explanations..... SATAN! And who could SATAN be? The U.S. (or whoever is better than they are). Muslims honestly believe that and no amount of friendly hugs and free reach-arounds is ever going to change that.

It would take ALOT of bombs to do what you describe for sure...why not just start rounding them up and toss em in ovens etc? To want to wipe them off the map without exhausting all diplomatic measures is quite frankly disturbing. Judging all of them so generally as a whole is rather unfair ta boot. Just as bad attitudes and poor policies of leaders fuel unfounded hatred towards the populations as a whole on both sides. The information age is lessoning these impacts tho it doesnt magically douse age old flames.

Whoa... rounding up jews based on their religion and exterminating is far different that the removal of a ruling class of people bent on the destruction of peaceful nation's. And while I have no problem with collateral damage, I'm certainly not condoning the wholesale slaughter of an entire race. Diplomatic measure don't work. If they did, we would never have war.

A "tactical" bombing would be our a typical short term narrow minded solution. Who cares if future americans have to pay the price for it right? That solution really falls right in line with America's current "on demand" society nicely. Im sure they wont retaliate and blow Israel off the map for "fear" of us! Im sure thru the information age they will never learn how best to take advantage of our lax society and inflict maximum casualties one way or the other.

'Typical'... as in what we usually do. And as we've been doing it for 250 years and have reached the top of the mountain, it sounds like it's a good solution. Perhaps we should be like France, Spain, or England? Once great nation's that now pale in comparison to their former glory. As far as Isreal, we'll they are one of the few countries that have the balls to take action. What other people could survive for so long whilst surrounded by baby-killing thugs?

Get out of the dam 80's and wake up bro! We are upon a new world order!! Were not the only ones with bombs!! In fact who needs bombs anymore? We actually have to answer to the world when we act more then ever before! Oh and guess what we may not RULE the roost forever more and could even possibly have to PAY for all the crimes that have been commited worldwide in the name of U.S.A. There are over 3+ BILLION people coming of age and our materialistic greedy ways are FINANCING the awakening!! Wonder how long before Water is more precious then OIL?? Theres some food for thought...

We are the only ones with 'real' bombs. We can easily defend ourselves and remove any threat we wished.... if we take our gloves off. and we don't have to answer to the world. Screw the U.N. The whole organization is a joke. The minute they let murderers and thieves and baby-killers into the global political arena, it was time to get out. The U.N. is based on the premise that countries could get together and settle things in a democractic fashion, yet the countries that are involved in the U.N. are some of the most brutal and violent fascist regimes on the planet... how do we expect them to act like civilized countries and further more, what do we care about what they say? And a big curse on you for evening thinking about water becoming more expensive than gas. How would I pay for Pops Murphy's new Porsche?

Also im sorry but I just dont see this nation of warriors you speak of. I dont feel like were of the same backbone then even a generation or two before us. Yeah we have guns in many many homes but i challenge you to imagine some of the folks you see from day to day with one in there hands. We are still a great and powerfull nation and have a military to be proud of yet for sure. All im saying is there has been a steady rate of deterioration of our core values which in turn makes us weak IMO. Were to damn divided and growing more and more so everyday.

A warrior nation doesn't mean that every man, woman, and child is a natural born killer. It simply means that we fight wars and we like to fight them. If we didn't, we wouldn't be involved in armed combat almost every year since the founding of our nation. We have major military campagins every few years and big wars every couple of decades. We love war and we reap the beneifts of it. To think that we are a peacefull people is just wrong. However, when we fight wars we generally do it with good intent and feel justified in our cause.

Im not anti American im just an American citizen studying what being American means to the rest of the world these days. Im finding alot of interesting tracks to say the least.

I've never cared what other countries think of us. Those pussies that travel to Europe and want to make sure that no one knows their Americans sickens me. If America is somehow in decline, it's because liberals have told us that we should be ashamed of our success. Liberals believe that success can only come because you are denying the liberties of others. That somehow we are to blame for starvation in Africa just because we eat good in the states. We'll screw that! We eat good and live good because we're number one, baby! And until more Americans quit worrying about what other countries think and start taking a little pride in this great country and the sacrafices our forefathers gave to make it that way, then yes... America is on a decline.

Americans need to do a little chest beating and start to grow a spine and a set of brass balls. Too many of my fellow country men are apologetic and spend too much time trying to wear other peoples' shoes, trying to understand how others see us and what people 'feel'. We'll screw that! This is the greatest frickin country in the world. Little kids in the slums of Poland don't dream of moving to Egypt. Families aren't jumping the border to live in the paradise of Ubakabakstan. Dads are seking better lives in Laos. Nope... they come here. They always have and always will. No other nation has been a shining city on the hill like the United States. We are a beacon of hope to a world that's in the shitter. Period.

[[AK]Bribo]

I don't think I'd classify these Middle Eastern countries as being in the "stone age", but I do think the radical Islam is what is fueling instability and hatred of the US. The US is hoping that we can turn the region into a more secular society (like Turkey). As long as you have these theocracies like Iran - where religious based hatred of anything anti-Islam is taught to children and force fed to it's population you will have these problems.

That being said - I still don't think it's a good idea to be forking over free technology and cash on the promise that Iran is going to play nice and abandon it's nuclear weapons program.

It's a delaying tactic that Iran will use to it's advantage and the outcome will likely be Iran with our money in their pockets, our technology AND a nuclear weapon. At that point the military options get a little trickier.

[[AK]Squidly]

That they're getting tech from someone is a given. It's not even up for debate. Someone will give them the tech. If not us, Russia, France, or Germany.

To partially address Cruiser's post - I don't particularly care if the US is liked around the world. I don't think it's prudent to base our policies on what will appease the most people.

I don't think bombing the crap out of them without good reason is the solution either. Getting a nuke, or being close to getting a nuke is good enough for me.

[Slaughter]

U.N.: We should've cut them off a while ago, we certainly should now after a U.N. officials outburst the other day.

Liberals: Coulter's new book, and her herself, says it best. They've been using wives of men who died in 9/11, Cindy Sheehan and others who are "politically immune" because of the "tragedies" they've gone through... they've been hiding behind these people. Enough is enough, we need to stop giving these people who've gone through "great tragedies" a free pass to slam the presidency and our country, specially since they've been making money of doing it. Liberals need to grow some balls and if they have something to say, say it for their damn selves.

[[AK]Bribo]

Liberals: Coulter's new book, and her herself, says it best.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the above discussion and should be posted in it's own thread.